In this episode, Katya talks to Alex Grigull. Alex is an architect and an associate at Grimshaw Architects, a world-renowned practice pioneering in high-tech design with numerous awards, including the most prestigious recognitions for architecture in the world. The focus of the conversation is his work on the Grimshaw LGBT+ group. He spearheaded the initiative and continues to support its growing significance in the whole of the architectural profession. Because of his work he was named UK Construction week top 4 Role model in 2019.
You can find Alex on LinkedIn at
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-grigull/
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Website - https://www.blushcloud.co.uk/
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LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/katyaveleva/
Enjoy the conversation
Transcript -
Katya 00:00
Hello,My name is Katya Veleva and this is changing the atmosphere, a podcast about changemakers and how they did it.
As always, to look at the illustration that comes with this episode head to theblush cloud website or follow the link in the description.
Today I am speaking to another dear friend - Alexander Grigull
Alex and I use the word queer, and as queer people ourselves in this way, WE try to reclaim this beautiful all-encompassing term. We also howeveracknowledge that some people in the LGBT+ community have a painful history related to this word
Alex is an architect and an associate at Grimshaw Architects, a world-renowned practice pioneering in high-tech design with numerous awards, including themost prestigious recognitions for architecture IN THE WORLD.
Alex’s particular focus is on tertiary education, laboratory andresearch facilities, that raise awareness of the importance of learning,innovation and scientific exploration. He also has wide experience, includingsome of the most impressive infrastructure projects in the uk. Today we talkabout his work on the Grimshaw LGBT+ group. He spearheaded the initiative andcontinues to support its growing significance in the whole of the architecturalprofession. Because of his work he was named UK Construction week top 4 Rolemodel in 2019.
Alex is a mentor, occasional lecturer, and frequent speaker at events.
I have had the opportunity to work quite closely with Alex and I havealways loved his spirit and generally joyful approach to work. What reallyimpressed me was how he always, without fail tried to imagine a journey,anyone’s journey in whatever he did. That’s somewhat natural when you talkabout planning and design, but he applied this approach even in eventorganisation. It makes me really happy to know many people are taking journeyswhich Alex has put thought into :)
Enjoy the conversation
Alex, thank you so much for being here. It's great tohave you and now that I've told everyone all the great things that you do, andI've bigged you up real good, I just wanted to ask a question I've asked everyguest, "Would there be a memory of maybe an embarrassing trend that you'veyou've fallen victim into that made you look a little bit silly? Because, Iwant to bring you down to earth a little bit, you know?
Alex 00:26
Oh, you mean when I was like 14 and trying to be askater boy?
Katya 00:30
Ooo! I'd love to hear about that
Alex 00:32
You mean that sort of thing?
Katya 00:34
Exactly!
Alex 00:34
Yeah, that was rather unsuccessful.
Alex 00:38
I think it was shortly after I tried to be a punk fora short moment, but yeah.
Katya 00:42
Oh, so there's more than one threat?
Alex 00:43
There's more than one embarrassing threat, yes.Luckily they were very far in the past by now, so I think I found myself.
Katya 00:51
Alex the skater boy and Alex the punk - what what didthat look like? Just give me an image?
Alex 00:55
Horrendous? Really not very good.
Alex 01:01
No, longer hair, that then became a bit shorter andthen definitely baggy trousers - had to be baggy. Everything had to be baggy -baggy t-shirts, baggy trousers, baggy shoes...
Katya 01:02
No?
Katya 01:12
Baggy hair?
Alex 01:14
Everything baggy. Yeah, not very flattering. Look, Ithink, I finished it fairly quickly then moved on to other things which I thinkis probably a good thing. Yeah.
Katya 01:28
Brilliant. So, even someone with long hair andeverything baggy...
Alex 01:33
I mean, I had long hair last year as well, right? Inthe pandemic, that's, that's for sure. So I felt like going back in time alittle bit, but I did skip the baggy clothes.
Katya 01:43
So even even with some questionable fashion choices inthe past, you're still doing some amazing work today, with the LGBT Plus Group,Grimshaw, but could you tell me what your life looked like before that? Whatwas a day in Alex's life? Or maybe a week in your life?
Alex 02:00
Well, I mean, I've been with the, with the company fora fair few years now, almost 15 years by now. So I started off there fairlyyoung, and I was at university before visiting. So this was my first big job.And I was fully out of uni. There wasn't much of a question there, really. Sothen I moved to London, into the big city, and, you know, starting the firstreal job. And, you know, in this big company. It was a bit intimidating, atfirst, and I think I went straight back into the closet to an extent, notnecessarily my private life, but certainly in my head I also thought, itdoesn't really belong into the workplace. You know, I wanted to make a reallyclear distinction between my private life and my working life. And I could seethat there were a lot of other people in the company that probably followed asimilar pattern.
Alex 02:59
There was a little bit where, you know, I just startedand I tried to kind of figure out who might be, you know, who might be gay, whomight be LGBT, and started to build connections. And we have this sort oftradition to go out for drinks on a Friday. And so we would go out for drinks,and then a little group of us would split off and head into Soho, and have, youknow, more drinks.
Katya 03:23
A gay-old time!
Alex 03:24
Good time! But what was peculiar was that then youwould come back in on Monday, and everybody was sort of back to theirprofessional selves. So, you had this quite stark distinction between whatMonday to Friday looked like, and what the weekend look like. It seemed like itwasn't really celebrated, or lived, or much talked about. It wasn't like it washidden, but it was also not really kind of made visible. There weren't any rolemodels. There was, you know, it was just, yeah, there are a few. And sometimesalso think it was a little bit, you know, under the stereotype of, well, it's acreative industry, therefore, it must be fairly open and gay or LGBT. I thinkthat was sort of seen as 'yeah, yeah, probably everything is okay!"
Alex 04:17
But actually, it was just not talked about. It wasjust like something that didn't really belong there. I think certainly in thelast five years, I've seen huge changes in this happening, and I hope that it'smaybe also the result of some of the activities that we've done.
Katya 04:33
I wonder whether, yes, architecture is a designcreative profession, but it's adjacent in a way to a very, very masculineindustry of construction. Do you think that that's influenced how you feltgenerally about it?
Alex 04:49
I think that also, you know, put yourself into theshoes of, you know, early 20 year old who has just graduated from universityand arrives in the big city, and works for a big company. That already isintimidating. Then yes, you are exposed to big construction firms, big projects,a lot of strong characters, you know? This is exciting, but it's also - it alsocan be something that people struggle with. And I think it is that kind of thatkind of setup where people get into real contact with their inner demons andcan only try and fight them off. And then not seeing other people having donethat, you know, not having sort of role models who can show you a prompt toyou, or the mentorship that's involved in kind of helping you deal with thoseinner issues, actually, mostly. I mean, I don't think it was necessarilysomething that was sort of imposed on me, but to just, you know, get theself-esteem up to to be able to kind of counteract that. I still think when Ilook back, there were a lot of people, especially the LGBT people, who probablyhad an attitude of, for instance, in meetings, "I'd rather say nothingthan saying something stupid, or something that makes me show up as asdifferent." And I see that disappearing. And I think that's a good thing.But I definitely had to deal with you know, those demons for sure. They werethere, and I think it's all about, you know, we really need to buildconfidence. Architecture sits on, even in the creative industries, it sits inan interesting kind of intersection point between the engineering and the, andthe construction, and the creative industries. And well, maybe there isn't a,you know, an understanding of the creative industries are generally more opento these different characters, then perhaps the construction industry was, bythe way, I think construction has made huge progress. Again, I see that more inthe last five years than ever before.
Katya 06:55
Yeah, absolutely, and you're gonna know very well howpassionately I feel about the diversity and construction. And it's not just aboutthe different points of view, but when you think about it, the builtenvironment is made for everyone. We all need to live in the built environment.So, we need to have everyone's input and what that's going to look and feellike.
Alex 07:15
I totally agree, and I actually would add that, youknow, usually certainly the sort of projects I'm involved with, they, by thetime we finished them, it's almost the next generation who really gets thebenefit of them. So actually, we're not really necessarily just planning forourselves, we should really be looking, who's following in our footsteps.
Katya 07:40
So you were getting on with your job, looking aroundthe office kind of thinking whether people are like you or not, maybe getting aglimpse of it on a Friday evening, but everything reverts back to normal on aMonday. I wonder, was there a specific moment that you knew that it was time tostart this group? And was there a particular trigger that got you to be -"This is it - I'm doing this?"
Alex 08:02
I think there were two things which occurred at thesame time. One was that we had a diversity week that the company announced fromthe leadership down, to say we want to really kickstart initiatives here, andwe want to tackle these issues. At the same time, there was a study beingpublished, I think, by the AJAY, which actually looked at architecture for thefirst time and said, how diverse is it actually? How open is it? And the studyfound that - you know, and this is what I kind of mentioned, very quicklyearlier to say, look - architecture has a has a is often seen as a stereotypeof something being very open and very progressive. But the study actually foundthat that's not the case. In fact, most people and you know, like myself, sortof went back into the closet, after starting in the workplace. And they wouldfeel uncomfortable when people started talking about their marriages andchildren and football. That's like a huge thing, because it's maybe notnecessarily what everybody is geared up to talk about, because it's noteverybody's experience. I think all of these conversations have their place.But I was always wondering, you know, can we not talk also about other things?
Katya 09:26
Yeah, and support your colleagues to connect with eachother in a really authentic way, because this is such a huge part of the workand being able to collaborate together. And if a couple of team members arejust staying quiet in that chit-chat because they don't want to say that that'snot the correct pronoun for my partner, or something of that sort. They're justlimiting themselves, and limiting how much they can achieve within a specifictheme.
Alex 09:52
Well, I think that's exactly it. That links back tothe sort of self esteem part that I mentioned. I think these things are allinterconnected, and I do firmly believe from from my own experience as well,that if you cannot bring your full-self into the workplace, and that meanseverything, other people, specifically the people you live with, because they areultimately they back you up. You know, they often help you with actually beingable to carry the stress and the pressures that the sort of general working daybrings. So I think their fundamental part, and you need to be able to give themthe credit they deserve as well, also in the workplace. And say, you know, theyare, they are part of my life, and they are also a big part of why I can dowhat I do. Not being able to do that is very limiting. I do think, you know,especially when you go into new, new working environment, you kind of want tofigure out what's going on first, before you show all your true colors in away. So I think there's a natural where people start to limit themselves atthat point naturally, and that's the sort of thing of not being...'Rathersaying nothing, than saying something wrong' - attitude. And actually, I thinksometimes it's really good to say something wrong, because maybe you're theonly one who speaks sense. And even if not, at least it starts the debate. Whatis definitely helpful is when you see, see people and hear people speaking upabout these things in the workplace, because it automatically takes the guarddown. From the workplace point of view, all we can do is point people to thedoor. They have to sort of walk through themselves. But what we can do is kindof swing the door open and say, you know, you're welcome to talk about thesethings, you're welcome to talk about everything you want to talk about here,because it's part of who you are. It's ultimately part of the work you do now.
Katya 11:56
I think it was such a beautiful thing that youhighlighted before, how your partner and the people you're sharing space withmaybe partners, they're such a huge part of you being able to show up for workin your best version and continue to deal with those stresses that's so sovaluable. And yeah, swinging that door open is an invitation, essentially, andthe more people who are invited then everyone else who's younger, and maybeneeds a little bit more - because it's normal to not be super confident - Idon't think that we should all step in and bang ourselves in the chest from dayone on every single initiative - but this is the seed that helps build thatconfidence in younger people who are queer and who are trying to find thatplace. That's really wonderful. So there was this initiative for Diversity Weekand kind of a space already starting to open it open up for something likethat.
Alex 12:50
Yeah, there was an amazing moment, actually, becauseif we're going to talk about also maybe what were the some of the successes, orthe moments that I didn't expect, was the amount of immediate uptake we had.So, we sent an email out to the whole office - the first time ever there wasall Office email on this subject. So that felt already felt a bit awkward, in away, but once the email was out, there was a flurry of email coming backsaying, "Yes, we want to be involved," which was amazing.
Katya 13:22
Oh, wow!
Alex 13:22
And actually, that showed me really, time is ready. Imean, people have been waiting for it. I think we've actually waited too longto do it, because there was definitely a readiness to - let's do this. And itshowed me that there was a need for it as well. Yeah, so I think immediatelyfrom about three people, we jumped to, I think, 15 or more participants, and alot of people who were immediately saying like, well, we want to be allies, andwe want to be involved in some other way, and what can we do? Which is amazing.
Katya 13:53
I'm getting goosebumps as you're speaking and I knowthis is a podcast, but if I could just describe how Alex's eyes just opened up,as soon as he stareted talking about these emails, it was just like a sunshineon his face. It is so amazing when you actually have this thing where, youknow, it's not frowned upon, but you don't feel like it's spoken about and soon, and then you put this hand up and suddenly there's so much support
Alex 14:16
The moment was ready. It was, yeah, long needed. Andit immediately made a difference. So we we had the Diversity Week, that wasalso really big happening within the workplace itself, or within the office,but then we carried that forward. I think we we organized a monthly kind ofcatch up. Obviously, it's sort of fallen a bit on the back burner because ofCOVID and nobody can meet up but we tend to attend as a group to meet once amonth and invite others as well, so it's not just a little elite group, but itis actually meant to be very open. And just to keep a bit of momentum and youknow, touch base with everybody how they're feeling. It also means that thereis a every month, there's a little reminder to the entire office saying, well,we're going to meet again. So feel free if you've got nothing to do to come andswing by for a drink. And it's also a very good way of making sure thatnewcomers can join in getting the company also saying like we are open, and wewant people who join us to immediately be able to partake in any of thoseactivities. Then it's up to the individual how much they want to put in interms of effort.
Katya 15:07
So from that first Diversity Week til now, when youlook back, do you see specific stages?
Alex 15:37
So the first year was fairly novel at the time. Therewas a huge level of energy, we had a big team, and we were very quick and justdoing kind of any, anything to keep things moving forward. So we had a bigcompetition for the pride float; we signed up immediately to Architecture LGBTPlus as their gold sponsor; we branched out to other networks; we hosted eventsin our office panel debates; we met every month; we had the LGBT DiversityWeek, and we did a lot of activities there. So yeah, there was a whole flurryof activities. Following that, things start to settle a little bit into place,and other focus shifts a bit again, people start to pick up on project work andand then there was definitely more of an energy to try and keep the spirit ofthe group going and actually keep the momentum up. Because we had done so muchin the first year, it's quite hard in the second year to reach that levelagain. So to really put a drive behind that was quite key. The next year, weactually, we came second on the Pride competition, and I think we should havewon. Definitely.
Alex 17:08
A memory I will never forget being on the float andseeing, I think was it was well over a million visitors on that day.
Katya 17:15
Wild.
Alex 17:16
Absolutely insane. Yeah. Crazy. Amazing-crazy.
Katya 17:21
Thinking about and I happen to have been on that floatas well, and it was...
Alex 17:26
Awesome!
Katya 17:27
..a once in a lifetime experience. Hopefully not once.Hopefully, we have many more Prides like that, but it was the first as wellattended in London, I believe.
Alex 17:37
Yes. Yeah, definitely. So that was a huge happening inthe second year of our existence as a group. Yes. And we did another, you know,some of the talks we did were fantastic.
Katya 17:50
That's brilliant. And so you had this first year offlurry of activities that just came to prove more and more how relevant it wasto have this specifically queer voice in the company, represented by the group,because from everything that you're saying, it is so relevant in ways that arenot almost immediately apparent to all other people. And this is one of thereasons why we need these different voices in creating a built environment.Because if you haven't had this queer experience of feeling unsafe in a publicspace, because of who you are, what you look like, there's no reason for you tothink of creating spaces like that. So that's really, really encouraging to seethat with all of that activity, you've brought the point home. So clearly, youkind of nailed it in the conversation. So that first year was a lot of action,then you kind of needed to continue to keep the drive going. But if we kind ofget back into the nitty gritty of how you make something like that happen, youmentioned that the first step was to send an email to everyone across theoffice? That's right?
Alex 18:57
There was astep before that, which was trying to get the people where you knew they wereLGBT plus in the company, try and get them together on a table, and say,shouldn't we do something?
Katya 19:11
How did you do that? That's quite tricky, isn't it?
Alex 19:14
That was the direct approach by the coffee point. Justgo out, and so you know, obviously, I knew some, I then discovered others. Andso that was literally, a five minute at a coffee point. And we started to thinkwho might be interested in doing this and drive it forward. And I think thenext day, we met up for a half an hour because we had to figure something outabout the you know, just making a talk to the wider office and then we saidlook, let's use this as a starting point of a group we already a group, andthen we use that as the as a starting point to say write one of us writes anemail out to the whole office and see what we get back and we might not getanything back, and then a whole flurry of things come back. We then actually realised,okay, well, we need to maybe structure this a little bit more.
Katya 20:09
What did that structure look like?
Alex 20:12
That structure looked like that we organized the firstmeeting and said, like, Look, let's come into one room and say, why we think weneed this group, and what we can do with the manpower that we've got here. And,you know, how do different people feel? I think that's one thing that to bevery mindful of is also in the context of this podcast, I'm one voice, I alwaystalk from my experience. I think the enjoyment of the group is that you haveall these other voices and angles coming together. We sort of started to say,well, there might be people who want to really drive this forward, because itneeds a core group. They just make sure that they definitely meet up or talk toeach other fairly regularly. They are also the first point of contact when itcomes to any kind of potential initiatives. I mean, now that we are a bit moreestablished, we get people asking us, would you be interested in taking part inthis or that? So that usually comes into that core group? And we then look at,what do we want to do with this? And then we bring the rest of the group in. Ithink one thing I've definitely also learned is that, you know, we don't wantto push people to come out, of course not. And we don't want to push them ifthey're not comfortable being involved or being visible, for instance.
Katya 21:41
There are several questions already. I'm struggling tochoose which one to go with. So you mentioned creating that initial manifesto,and then you're talking about keeping up with activities and keeping up thatmomentum. Did you have a goal at the start? Or we're going to make sure that wedo three activities per year or something like that?
Alex 22:00
No, we did do that a little bit. I think in the firstyear, we were a bit more, let's just try and do whatever we can. I think sincethen we've become a little bit more organized. This year, certainly was verymuch on 'queer safe spaces'. So we almost set ourselves a theme for the year,and actually, that was really useful. There is more of a goal in that respectof trying to say, why don't we set ourselves a theme that we, as a group,almost explore throughout the year, and we do some activities around it, and itcreates visibility, and it allows people to step into becoming role models, andit adds something to the professional debate about what our city should be;what our buildings should be.
Katya 22:53
And it sounds like so many of the things that you’rementioning, just talk about the sensitivity that you're looking outwards andinwards as well. Because, yes, you're looking at the themes externally, andwhat's happening in the world, what's important, what's relevant, what you canpick up and, and support. But you're also talked before about making sure thatpeople are comfortable coming in - that they want to take part in theseinitiatives, because some of them are design work. Some of them revolve aroundwriting, as you did an article. And obviously, you want people to have anappetite for that sort of thing. And something that you started talking aboutbefore as well, and I find interesting in your process is, initially there wasthe coffee-chats with the people you knew, and you kind of said, oh, maybeshall I just have this conversation, because you have some kind of point ofview already..
Alex 23:41
I mean the people in that coffee chat that, you know,were some of these very first people I met in the company that I talked about,so they're also still there...
Katya 23:50
The first Friday flowers? So, then you put out thequestion to everyone in the entire company.
Alex 24:00
Yes.
Katya 24:00
And then there are people who want to get involved,but you continue. You mentioned that before. You continued to communicate tothe entire company about the activities, and there is this kind of completeopenness and awareness that there are people there who may benefit from justseeing that email existing, they may not be ready to come out, they may not beready to step into the space at all. But they see once or twice a month, arainbow coming through their business email box...
Alex 24:24
Absolutely!
Katya 24:24
So was that a very conscious choice - how you're communicating inside andoutside?
Alex 24:24
Well, it brightens things up so much!
Alex 24:33
Yeah, we definitely have to. And that was very one ofthe very early goals was to say we want to do communicating inwards andcommunicating outwards. It should be both and it comes together in this group.I think that first year, we probably tried to communicate a little bit moreinwards. And I think from this year, we started going a little bit moreoutwards, which is actually good. So It's taken a second fair few years toreally kind of find the balance, but I think it's crucial.
Katya 25:08
And that consistency of people showing up and beingable to talk about that just must be so powerful within the company.
Alex 25:16
Yes. I mean, it's something I'm looking forward to,you know, it energizes my life as well. So once you set the group up andstarted to think about what you're doing, how have you come up with theactivities and initiatives?
Alex 25:33
That was initially a brainstorm, to just say, well, westarted by saying, do we see any barriers within the company? Have weexperienced things ourselves within the company that we'd rather not haveexperienced? And what may have been leading up to those? And what is it that wecan do to prevent that from happening again, for instance? It was very much aninitial brainstorm. And then there was the end of that, I think that was thesort of inward looking part. And then there was the outward looking part of saying,Look, there is already some established networks there. Can we tap into that?Because we are new to this? Can we speak to people that have been doing thisfor a while that may know a little bit more than us? And so we started reachingout to those guys. And so we just started bringing all these little bitstogether.
Katya 26:29
So, so far, what has been the hardest part of thisjourney?
Alex 26:33
The fight with the inner demons, I guess. Finding theinner confidence to really say, well, I'm just gonna go and send that emailnow. It makes you very vulnerable, you feel very vulnerable. You feel veryexposed, which was then equally great to see such a flurry of enthusiasm comingback. I think those sort of things may have been quite challenging. In thatelement, what was really useful was the fact that we had just experienced thatwe are actually critical mass. That there are a couple of, you know, more thanjust two. Not the only gay in the village. Obviously not. I mean, that'ssomething I always knew. Because I had also been with the company for a fairlylong time for several years, by that point, maybe I felt secure enough anyway.So,it wasn't such a big problem. I think I think there was other challenges.Other things that changed me more now. We were at the UK construction week, afew years ago, and we spoke about role models and what we'd done. So standingin front of, you know, several 100 people and saying, I'm gay, and I'mspearheading the LGBT group within our company. Yes, that is something. Yeah,that's quite uncomfortable for me.
Katya 27:58
And yet, you're still doing it, though! Well, what isthe thing that helps you get through that moment? When you're shaking a littlebit? Before you say that from a big stage?
Alex 28:11
I think it's the knowledge that there is a groupbehind it. I'm not naturally. I didn't naturally volunteer to be the leader ofthis group, or spear-heading it, but it usually needs somebody.
Katya 28:25
But what about the first time, before we knew therewas that critical mass behind you?What helped you press the 'Send' on thatfirst email?
Alex 28:32
Well, I knew that there was already a small group ofcritical mass, you know, we were about four or five. So I then thought, let'sjust do it. I've been here for so long. Maybe nobody comes back. I alsothought, probably if people dislike it, they're just not going to talk aboutit. So what else are you looking to achieve? Like what are the goals for thefuture of the Grimshaw LGBT Plus Group?
Alex 29:00
Looking internally, I hope that we can get togethermore internationally with our other offices. I think that'd be exciting. So Ithink there are a lot of people across the world working in this company, andit would be fantastic to bring them together. Because I think we are muchbigger as a group than even the London studio perceives. And also think theremight be different challenges, which are interesting to talk about. So that'sthe sort of looking inwards, I'd love to get that going. And the other part,the outward looking part, I think, I'd love to just have more people gainingmore confidence to do the speaking things to go out there from the group and tokind of talk about it. Go out, speak about it, face your demons, push yourselfoutside the comfort zone.
Katya 29:58
Was there maybe a mistake or something that felt likea mistake along the way that you still would go ahead and do the same way?
Alex 30:07
There were probably lots of little mistakes, but Ican't pinpoint one big one. If I could do it again, I'd probably do it. Soit's, you know, maybe we could be more organized, and maybe we could try andmeet more regularly, and so on and so forth. But I do think there needs to bean acknowledgement that this is not our core job. We do all of this, aside fromeverything else. So I don't I don't think there was any major trip up or whereI thought, oh no I shouldn't have done that. I could be much better with mylanguage. I'm fully aware of that, I should use my terminologies better. I'mworking on it. I'm working on it. Apart from that, I, you know, those are thoselittle things, I probably wouldn't have thought about this, if I wasn't part ofthis group. I wouldn't have reflected on the way I use language, as much as Ido. Now. I'm talking about inclusive language, you know, trying to bringeveryone in.
Katya 31:12
It seems like it's been a very strong learningexperience, nevertheless. So that's the important part of it. And I always liketo say that I call myself a diversity inclusion consultant, because I thinkit's insane to call yourself an expert or anything like that, because the thingthat makes you good at supporting people is being open and knowing that you'renever going to know everything. You can have the capacity to take some feedbackand adjust.
Alex 31:39
I agree. I find it quite hard. Some people ask you,how do you measure your success? And I do think it's very useful to try andmeasure success. So when we do set ourselves goals, to try and see are weactually achieving them? And they can be manifold. So within the company, we’respeaking to our HR team, for instance, and we're saying, you know, we want tomake sure that we actually recruit from a much more diverse base. Other aspectsof inclusion diversity, I find very difficult to measure, and I think they'revery, you know, they're not as tangible. But I do think that because they comedown to a very subjective view of how somebody feels. And it's very difficultto measure somebody's feeling. But I do think you can actually see when youwalk into a place, how people behave with each other, whether people feel happyin that place, and feel comfortable in that place and feel included in thatspace. I don't think there is a design recipe for what a safe space is. But Ido think that there is a real need for it. And the only way of measuring thatis actually to see how people feel in the space and that you can't reallymeasure that.
Katya 33:03
So if you have to name - this seems to be one of themajor things that has come out from the group - but if you had to name your topthree biggest lessons from this process, what would they be?
Alex 33:15
Well, the first one is the obvious one, don't expectthat your view is the only view out there and engage in the conversation. Thesecond one is sort of aligned with that. I find it fascinating to learn about people'sintersectionalities. I know we had a great event about this, but actually, I'minterested in the people behind it and in their personal journeys. And I findit really fascinating to see and to hear which journeys people have taken andhow that differs and coincides with my own journey. I think that's that's justbeautiful to know. And when you find those intersection points, those are thepoints where the energy sits that kind of sparks ideas and drives thingsforward. I do think great ideas are born out of good conversations.
Katya 34:07
That's a beautiful lesson there. And from everythingthat you've been saying, it sounds like the creation and the activity of thatgroup has been an opening of sorts, a big process of connection and reachingout, which is wonderful. Looking back at so many connections that have beencreated and so many people that have been involved, who's been the biggestcheerleaders?
Alex 34:32
There have been a few I'd say. I think you've beenvery, very helpful here. Definitely. We as a team, worked really closely togetheras well, and it was really useful to have someone you can bounce ideas off ofand that would pick up and say, "Yeah, let's do it. Let's just get itdone!" I think the strategic placement of Angela was very important aswell. I think she's been really fantastic in getting the group going and sayingno, you should do this now and actually it was good that it was somebody whohadn't been with the company for a long time, but who just started and kind ofbrought a new knowledge in. Seeing the backing from senior management,definitely, that kind of came naturally, actually. Much more naturally thanperhaps expected. And I would bring my partner back in. There was a bit of himreally sort of saying, "Yeah, it's great you're doing this, and I think thatthat does a lot as well.
Katya 35:31
It does sound wonderful. What do you think was thebiggest positive surprise in the process?
Alex 35:38
I think that after the initial email, the amount ofinterest that came towards us, and then likewise, the amount of interest thatcame towards us, when we reached out externally as well. There was just a huge"Yes. Can we meet up? And can we do something? And how do we get youinvolved?"
Katya 36:00
So what kind of advice would you give to anyone who islooking to create change, themselves, in their workplace?
Alex 36:09
Try and find a critical mass. You probably know whothese people are anyway. You can't really approach them, really, but if youknow already, you can definitely go and say,, "Look, we're basically friends,and can we have a chat. Should we do this?" and see what they have to say.Because, if it's already the two and the three and the four of you, you areprobably not everybody. So reach out there. And use that momentum of a smallgroup saying, we should do this, because if you're not doing it, then it mighttake another two years until somebody else does it. So, it's actually findingthe moment, and it's not overthinking the moment either. I think that's quiteimportant. You just do it, then in there. Don't say we need a big launch date,or we need this or that or the other. That's not really important. That willcome quite naturally. It's the getting together and saying we're doing thistoday. It's a Tuesday, and that's why we're doing it.
Katya 37:17
Brilliant. It's a Tuesday, and that's when we're doingit. I love this. Just get it done.
Alex 37:21
Get it done. Yeah.
Katya 37:22
Brilliant. So, so far, have you been recording ourprocess in any way?
Alex 37:27
We're recording. We're trying to do a yearlyreflection. That's more for the group really, to see what we've been up to,what we spend our time on, what we think worked, what we think may not haveworked as well. But also to kind of say, look, we've talked about theseaspects, and we dedicated a whole year to them. What is it that we want to lookat next? And it's a good moment to kind of just step back from everything for asnapshot - take a snapshot of where you are, and then take those findings andsay, What do we want to - How do we apply them to the future?
Katya 38:06
Do it on a Tuesday afternoon, and then at the end ofthe year, look back at your Tuesday afternoons and maybe put those on a pieceof paper.
Alex 38:12
That's it. Yeah, so actually, they look really good.Like, it's fun to have a little here, we do a little booklet of what we've beenup to. And that's really motivating as well. I also am a great believer of thefact that you can't do these things in isolation. Don't be the one who's tryingto fight the world, on your own back. Take others on the journey. I think it'svery important you want their buy in, you do want them to feel included in theconversation. Listen to what they have to say, even though it may not be whatyou want to hear. I think we could be more diverse. I'd love that. And it's achallenge sometimes, you know, how do you reach out to other groups, wheremaybe I'm just not as diverse as I was hoping to be? No, but joking aside, youknow, you need to try and pick people up where they are. And then, show themthe door and say, you know, we really, really want you to be part of this.
Katya 39:17
That journey is usually related to some kind oftrauma, and when you need to essentially, quote-unquote, for lack of a betterword, walk back to meet someone where they are so that it may be able to supporthim to get somewhere else, that may be difficult for you because of that traumaconnection. But still, it's definitely worth the effort, isn't it?
Alex 39:39
There's some people who are already seeking thesekinds of networks anyway, so they’re already progressing. You know, you kindajust need to say here's the door and they'll walk through it. It's the peoplethat aren't on that mission that may not have the support at home. May not feelas strong. That is the bit where I would like to have somebody explain to mehow I can reach out in the right way.
Alex 40:14
Communicating those differences; trying to bridgethose gaps; providing visibility for people who are different in a way that isalso inviting to other people who may not have points of reference. That's askill. That's an educational ability that's not innate to everyone, and it'snot easy. And that's why I always say that it's important to sometimes bring upexternal people who specialize in that because it is a sensitive conversation.
Alex 40:42
I think external speakers can, to an extent, be veryuseful here as well, not just not just being speakers on the panel, butactually, we can obviously try and curate panels. So if we see there's ashortfall, we would like to try and connect with people from a specificbackground, for instance, you know, bringing somebody like this entrepreneurcan be a really useful means of demonstrating that we want those people to bethere with us. Maybe also reaching out more directly connecting to the peoplethat we would otherwise struggle to connect with a little bit.
Katya 41:20
And in your own words, open that door and, and allowfor the movement a little bit. That's absolutely wonderful, and thank you somuch for all the work that you're doing. It is brilliant.
Alex 41:32
Well, thank you for letting me speak about it.
Katya 41:34
Now, is there something else you'd like to share?Maybe you'd like to share where people can find you and learn more about thethings that you're doing? And maybe a little bit more about the safe spacesbook that you're supporting?
Alex 41:46
Yeah, so I can share, well, obviously, I work forGrimshaws. So, you will find me on the company website somewhere. And you willfind me in the London office, if I'm there. And you will obviously find me asthe head of the LGBT group within the company. You may also see me interactingwith Architecture LGBT Plus, or YUCA Construction Week, or other networks. I doa lot with the Higher Education Design Quality Forum at the moment. Andobviously, find me on LinkedIn and send me your contact request and I'll behappy to accept it. And then again, if there are any things where you mightthink there's an opportunity to work together to come up with initiativestogether, or where we can contribute our perspective? Yeah, it would be awesometo be involved. For me, it's all about the doing.
Katya 42:41
All about the doing on this active note, thank youagain, Alex for being here.
Alex 42:47
Thank you very much, Katya.
Katya
“It’s a Tuesday and we are doing it!” I loved this conversation, toomany great quotes!
As always I try to find patterns in what my guests are telling me andtoday, I once again hear the need for support. Change is quite scary and it’stoo hard, almost impossible to make it happen when you feel alone. And I havesaid this before, this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, how do you makethat first step so others don’t feel alone just like you do? But anotheremerging pattern I see in my conversations is how the best surprise is thatindeed there is actually quite a bit of support once you stick your head out.
I can only wish Alex and Grimshaw Lgbt+ wind in their sails, and maybenext year’s Pride Float Design Competition award. Good luck gang!
Thank you for listening, until next time - keep changing theatmosphere.
A catalyst and agility - only a couple of the things that made animpression on me from this conversation. Catrina is a medical doctor, becomingone is a huge feat, but even someone like her needed that friend to say “let’sjust do it”; This keeps reappearing in my change-making conversations - anindividual can do SO much on their own, they really can, but with a sprinkle ofthis catalyst they can create a real avalanche! The good news is that thismagic dust is probably a casual coffee date away from any one of us!
The other thing that really impressed me about Catriona and Muna wastheir wild adaptability! Maybe all of us have developed our ability to react inthe last 18 months, but this is on another level. It may be survival of thefittest, but this sounds like thriving of the most adaptable to me.
Don’t forget to check out Portrait of a Londoner, it’s truly a greatpodcast.
Thank you for listening, until next time, keep changing the atmosphere.
